In 2021, ProPublica published an investigation built on leaked tax documents that reveal what some of the richest Americans really pay — or don’t. Warren Buffett had a true tax rate of 0.1 percent. Jeff Bezos: 0.98 percent. Michael Bloomberg: 1.3 percent.

Ultra-wealthy Americans have essentially been written out of the tax system. “It’s wrong as a matter of principle. It’s wrong because we need their money. It’s wrong as a matter of fairness. It is wrong for so many reasons,” the law professor Ray Madoff told me.

She’s the author of the new book “The Second Estate: How the Tax Code Made an American Aristocracy,” and she’s interested in helping people understand how broken the American tax system is and how to fix it.

In this conversation, we discuss the techniques the ultra-wealthy use to evade the tax system, why they think “salaries are for suckers” and what tax reform could look like.

00:00:00 Intro
00:02:11 The misleading "progressive tax code" narrative
00:05:12 How the ultra-rich avoid income tax
00:08:01 What ProPublica's leaked tax documents revealed
00:15:37 How different wealth is taxed
00:17:47 The estate tax: theory vs. loopholes
00:22:09 Dynasty trusts and other tax avoidance
00:32:19 Why investment income is taxed lower
00:38:18 The "angel of death loophole" explained
00:44:30 Challenges of a state wealth tax
00:46:47 Federal wealth tax as a constitutional issues
00:49:07 Proposed solutions for tax reform
1:03:22 Book recommendations

Read the full transcript here: https://www.nytimes.com/2026/04/17/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-ray-madoff.html

Watch more on @EzraKleinShow

Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.

You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html