When President Trump didn’t annihilate “a whole civilization” on Tuesday, as he had threatened to do, much of the world exhaled. But the damage of his statements — a U.S. president, the commander in chief of the world’s most powerful military, threatening to commit war crimes — continues to linger in the shadow of an uncertain cease-fire.

Fareed Zakaria is the host of CNN’s “Fareed Zakaria GPS” and the author of “Age of Revolutions” and other books. In this conversation, we discuss whether Trump’s threats on Truth Social worked as a negotiating tactic, the significance of crossing this kind of moral line and how the decline of American leadership is already reshaping the world.

This episode contains strong language.

0:00 Intro
6:12 Trump’s threats against Iran
12:54 Were the threats a negotiation tactic?
23:42 Predatory hegemony
25:49 Israel’s perspective
30:23 What America has lost in this war
42:07 Why liberalism is struggling right now
59:32 Post-American dominance
1:03:51 What about China?
1:06:50 Book Recommendations

Read the full transcript here: https://www.nytimes.com/2026/04/10/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-fareed-zakaria.html

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You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html